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Thursday, January 28, 2010

India’s top 10 lawyers - Times of India


Drawing up any kind of list is fraught with danger, especially a list of the country’s ten top lawyers! We will almost certainly be accused of acts of omissions and commissions. On our part, we’ve tried to be as thorough as possible — asking senior and junior lawyers and retired judges for their opinion; examining the track record of short-listed candidates; comparing their knowledge, acumen and court craft with that of others. How good are they at retrieving seemingly impossible situations? Can they persuade a judge to appreciate a point of view that is diametrically opposite his initial understanding? What role have they played in the seminal cases of our time? How have they shaped the opinion of government, the judiciary, the public? In our final list, we left out those who currently hold positions in government, such as attorney general Goolam Vahanvati and solicitor general Gopal Subramaniam. We also didn’t consider Kapil Sibal and Arun Jaitley, because as HRD minister and leader of the Opposition in the Rajya Sabha, respectively, they don’t practise anymore. In the end, we based our judgement primarily on what we saw and heard, first hand, in the courts…

NARIMAN’S POINT, COUNTERPOINT

He is the wise man of the Bar. Nariman’s stature allows him to be blunt in court. He lets his displeasure be known when a judge fails to understand a point — “No, no, that’s not what I mean.”
Nariman, 81, has aged beautifully. His voice has turned metallic over the years, but it still booms in the biggest courtroom of all — the chief justice of India’s , with its 40-feet high ceiling.
Nariman regularly loses his cool with assistants who try and come to his rescue while a judge is in the middle of asking him a question. “Listen to the judge first, I say,” he tells them testily. He can also be impatient, especially with juniors who take too long to source a citation to buttress his arguments — “Quick, quick, what are you doing.”
Nariman started life as a lawyer in 1951, under the legendary Jamsetjee Kanga, and was enriched by his senior’s endless tales of real-life courtroom drama. He also imbibed his senior’s motto: “Work is worship.” (Nariman is proud of the fact that India’s first chief justice Harilal Kania was also a product of Kanga’s chamber.)
The case that got him into the real big league came 30 years into his career, in 1981. This was the Needle Industry Company Case which related to intricate questions in company law. Nariman’s client had lost in the high court to the arguments of the famous H M Seerbhai. Nariman defended him with great technical brilliance before the Supreme Court, which finally ruled in favour of Nariman’s client.
Even as he climbed the “greasy poles of success” , as he puts it, he has often found himself drawn to hopeless cases. Maybe, it’s because he believes in the saying: “The important thing is not winning, but taking part; the important thing in life is not conquering, but fighting.”
He charges Rs 2.5-3 lakh for a five minute argument on admission day, while a day-long hearing could see him earn upwards of Rs 25 lakh. But he does many cases for free, too. As for what he does with his money, his response is blunt: “That’s nobody’s business but mine.” He’s known to give a lot of money to charity (apart from his pro bono work), but won’t disclose details.
Nariman’s formula for success: “75 per cent hard work, 25 per cent court craft”. His advice to younger lawyers? “Be humble before the court and do not suppress a fact even if it’s against you.”
SUPREME SOLI-LOQUIST- SOLI SORABJEE

Sorabjee loves to be referred to as the former attorney general, for it brought him great glory. As AG, he successfully defended India against Pakistan in the Atlantique downing case in an international court. The Atlantique incident involved the Indian Air Force shooting down a Pakistan Navy plane, Breguet Atlantique, carrying 16 people on board, citing violation of airspace. The incident took place in the Rann of Kutch on August 10, 1999, just a month after the Kargil war, creating a tense atmosphere between India and Pakistan. Thanks to Sorabjee, the court exonerated India and the political situation regained a measure of normalcy.
Sorabjee brings with him extraordinary constitutional knowledge and international experience. And he puts to good use his collection of mad ‘bawa’ (Parsi) jokes to lighten a particularly grim proceeding. When he runs out of repartee, you might hear him speaking in typically bawa-accented Hindi — at times, even lapsing into Gujarati if the opposing lawyer is Gujarati. And he’ll recount the story years later before another sheepishly-smiling Bench: “We spoke only in Gujarati and the poor judges understood nothing of our conversation.”
A fierce advocate of free speech and human rights, Sorabjee was aggrieved by the Emergency and its excesses. The Morarji Desai government , which came in the wake of the Emergency, appointed him additional solicitor general in 1977. Sorabjee says his shifting base from Mumbai to Delhi was a crucial turning point in his life.
Among his celebrated cases, was his appeal — against heavy political odds — on behalf of the dismissed Karnataka chief minister S R Bommai in the Supreme Court. The SC passed a landmark judgment reinstating Bommai and striking at the notion that the Centre could, without a second thought, invoke Article 356 of the Constitution to get rid of state governments belonging to Opposition parties. (By the time the judgment came though, fresh elections had taken place and Bommai could not benefit from the ruling.)
Among the biggies, Sorabjee charges the least — Rs 1.25-2 lakh for appearing on admission day — say juniors who brief lawyers. Like Nariman, he says homework’s what counts most, court craft is really the icing on the cake. His ratio: 70:30.
Sorabjee’s daughter has followed in his footsteps — Zia’s a successful corporate lawyer (one son’s a physician , the other an auto expert).

BIG MAN ON THE BIG STAGE- HARISH SALVE

He is the ‘legal robot’. The huge frame rushing from court to court is a common sight on busy days. But one never finds Harish Salve breathless – effortlessly arguing on cricket and politics, communal pogroms and economics.
As a young lawyer he worked with Nani Palkhivala, something he considers a great learning experience. But the most “telling event” , he says, was arguing before a five-judge constitution Bench in the important Bearer Bonds case in 1981. This completely removed all fear from a young Salve’s mind. “In the Bearer Bonds case, the court held that laws relating to economic activities should be viewed with greater latitude than laws touching civil rights, such as freedom of speech, religion, etc. The court said — reviewing past decisions — that on economic regulation courts must give considerable leeway to the legislature. It is a fundamental rule that the duty of judges is to expound and not legislate. I am proud that I had a creative hand in the landmark judgment.”
Another biggie was his fight for Doordarshan in a case regarding telecast rights. All the leading lawyers were appearing for a private channel and when standing counsel Madan Lokur (now a judge in the Delhi HC) was asked what he would do as all big guns were on the opposite side, he had replied: “I have a small gun. You can come tomorrow and see it firing accurately.” The “small gun” — Salve — did fire well and DD won. He counts the Bilkis Bano case among his major triumphs, setting in motion through the apex court orders a CBI inquiry into an incident that unraveled sinister designs of conspirators in the post-Godhra riots.
His happiest moment? It came when he got a small endorsement from Palkhivala. In a complex tax matter, a client took Salve’s opinion and wanted to test it by asking Palkhivala to examine it. After scrutinizing it, the guru said, “I have nothing more to add to Salve’s opinion.”
Salve went on to become solicitor general during the NDA regime, but after just three years in office he quit in 2002 over differences with the then AG, an incident he terms “one of the saddest moments in my professional career.”
But what does the 57-year-old do with the money he earns? “For the most part, I waste it.” Like other successful lawyers, he values rigorous preparation, but adds, “Spontaneity is what distinguishes a good counsel from a not-so-good one.”
MAN FOR ALL SEASONS- K PARASARAN

He is the grand old man of India’s court royalty. K Parasaran is also a favourite legal consultant with politicians of the UPA government, and is reputed to have the trust of the Congress’ first family.
Parasaran barely speaks outside the courtroom. But when he argues a case, he is one of the most articulate advocates ever. His presentations are punctured with citations. The erudition he displays is not just a verbal exercise. His hands, oscillating constantly as if he is performing aarti, speak as well.
He is known to be an ethically driven lawyer. Once, the formidable Nani A Palkhivala, arguing against him, was moved to leave a note complimenting him. It read: “You are the undisputed leader of the Bar not only as the attorney general, but also in ethical values. I always like to have you as the opponent, because you will state the case as high as it can possibly be put, but, at the same time, you never try to take unfair advantage of the other side. I wish other government counsels would follow your laudable example”.
Parasaran, who became AG in 1984, has perhaps fielded the widest range of cases among India’s legal luminaries. He is at ease with complicated constitutional issues, as well as politically volatile water disputes between states. But, a case that remains fresh in his mind is the Post-Manufacturing Expenses Case. It famously set off Union of India against Bombay Tyres International (1984).
Says Parasaran, “The Union of India had lost the case in 10 high courts and succeeded only in three high courts. In the end, the Supreme Court decided in favour of the Union of India, but there is a tale in it, one with lots of twists. I had the privilege of appearing against several stalwarts of the Bar led by Nani Palkhivala. I remember Mr Justice Bhagawati asking me in a lighter vein, ‘Union of India has lost before 10 high courts and succeeded only before three, but I derive great solace from the fact that Union of India has succeeded before the three high courts of Gujarat, Allahabad and Calcutta.’ Ironically, the case was being heard by a bench of three judges hailing from the Gujarat, Allahabad and Calcutta high courts!”
Parasaran believes the Bar is no longer as ethical as it once was. He is sad that the image of the higher judiciary has been tarnished with so many allegations of corruption. “What can I do, but offer my prayers.”
CRIMES ARE HIS PASSION- RAM JETHMALANI

He generally walks into a courtroom relaxed, wearing a smile on his face. But when it comes to arguing , Jethmalani can leave the most elegant and formidable of adversaries stammering and stuttering. He uses his baritone to showcase his phenomenal knowledge of both criminal and constitutional law.
Jethmalani’s special weapon is his rapier-sharp wit. Nothing brought that in play as much as the Hawala scam case, where Jethmalani argued for the BJP leader L K Advani, challenging the chargesheet and the proceedings initiated on its basis. The judge, reflecting the public perception about tainted politicians, made a pre-emptive observation, “Mr Jethmalani, all these politicians appear to be corrupt. Do not expect any relief from me.”
Jethmalani replied without a pause: “My Lord is absolutely right. These politicians deserve no mercy. But the law is different . Consider this: if My Lord dismisses my case and I go back home and write My Lord’s initials on my diary with a sum of Rs 10 lakh written against it, would My Lord be chargesheeted for it?”
The judge sat back, listened to Jethmalani in rapt attention and, ultimately, quashed the case against Advani. Such flourishes of court craft aside, Jethmalani describes the famous Commander Nanavati murder case — resulting from the killing of the wife’s lover — as the “most important milestone of my professional career” . “My role in the trial court as well as in the high Court was of protecting the interests of the family of the deceased. I was, therefore, confined to helping the public prosecutor in the trial court (C M Trivedi) and the government pleader in the high court (Y V Chandrachud).
“But for some reason, everybody seems to think that I was responsible for both Nanavati’s conviction as well as his presidential pardon that overturned the Supreme Court’s award of life imprisonment !” Another case Jethmalani considers particularly memorable is the one where he secured the acquittal of Balbir Singh, who was convicted of conspiracy to kill Indira Gandhi.
Then, there was the unlikely civil case in which the SC accepted that Hindutva and the Hindu religion were different, and that Hindutva was in conformity with the Constitution and its central tenet of secularism.
“Unfortunately my view of Hindutva which the Supreme Court accepted has not been consistently followed by those who consider Hindutva their invention and exclusive brand of politics,” says Jethmalani , taking a dig at right-wing parties.
As the most famous practitioner of criminal law today, it’s hardly surprising that he is the highest paid. And he makes no bones about it. “I do earn money which some people may consider a lot. But I also have many responsibilities to discharge. I have often lived beyond my means, and I am not a miser.” Does success go to his head? “I do not allow myself to be rattled by failure or intoxicated by success,” he says. When he set out, Jethmalani was anything but a success. “A very sad moment in my life was when I was compelled to leave my place of birth in Pakistan, become a refugee in India and start a miserable life in a refugee camp in Bombay,” he recalls. “Hard work and industrious application” was his way out of that life.
BUDDHA OF THE BAR- ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI

He is a much-recognised lawyer in the corridors of the Supreme Court, thanks to his regular appearance as spokesperson for the Congress party. It is possible that his constant proximity to the wiliest of politicians has helped him hone his skills. But the truth is that his legal brilliance has never been in question. Which explains why Singhvi became the youngest additional solicitor general in India when he was just 37.
Singhvi is relatively calm in reasoning out his case. That is saying a lot in a field where the protagonists are given to hawing and humming.
His restraint seems principled. He actually finds an exchange of hot words between Bench and Bar painful. It is a sentiment he shares with his late father L M Singhvi, a well-known lawyer in his own right.
This correspondent recalls an incident involving the father. L M Singhvi was appearing in a case before a Bench headed by Justice Arijit Pasayat, who never lost an opportunity to raise his voice. On one occasion, LMS was at the receiving end. But, instead of losing his cool, Singhvi waited out the judge’s ire, and said, ” I am not used to shouting and countering it with vociferous arguments. I am always for a polite conversation between Bench and Bar. Much can be achieved if the decibels are kept low.”
Surely, the father must have held many a great lesson for the son. Abhishek has proved his mettle in many dramatic cases. But the one that holds lasting charm for him in terms of its mass appeal is the National Flag Case.
In this, he represented the industrialist-politician Naveen Jindal and got him, along with over a billion Indians, the right to fly the national flag atop their houses, which was earlier restricted to government buildings.
His wife, Anita is an acclaimed ghazal and sufi singer. Anita too has a law degree, but has preferred a career in music. His family apparently keeps him on his toes: “I married an expensive wife long ago and have fairly free-spending children, all of which maintains the input-output ratio,” Singhvi says, tongue in cheek.
Apart from an “expensive wife” to whom he is happily married, Abhishek has three jealous and demanding mistresses – advocacy, the Congress party spokesmanship and parliamentary politics. The 51-year-old seems pretty adept at spreading himself thin among the three.
LEAD VOCALIST- MUKUL ROHTAGI

He can argue a case even if briefed for two minutes before being called in for hearing. That is Mukul Rohatgi for you — a man who does not depend much on case law but has an uncanny ability to recount a public sham, quite akin to the case in hand, to persuade a judge to see his point of view.
Inside court, Rohatgi quite often shouts down an opponent, whatever be the latter’s stature. And when the advocate protests, he quickly puts in a rejoinder: “This is the normal way I argue. It was never meant to offend you.” His volume is as big as his stature.
Outside court, he is less belligerent . Unlike a lot of lawyers who upbraid the media for ‘biased’ reporting, Rohatgi smiles and says, “Boss, why are you after me?”
The undisputed king among advocates in the Delhi HC, Rohatgi was appointed additional solicitor general by the Vajpayee government in 1999, an appointment that saw him shift base to the SC.
Strangely, his happiest moment was 30 years ago when he got an opportunity to argue a complex property suit against the famous Y K Sabharwal. He lost the case, but the memory of the tenacious fight he put up was inspirational.
Of course, he also loves to recall cases he has won. One of them relates to the constitutional issue of a floor test in the Jharkhand Assembly, which the then governor Syed Sibte Raji was reluctant to order . Rohatgi’s efforts fructified with the SC asking for a floor test.
An ongoing saga that has Rohtagi engrossed is the one that pitched the two Ambani brothers into battle over gas supply issues in the Bombay High Court. Rohatgi, who appears for Anil Ambani, has just concluded arguments in the Supreme Court in an appeal filed by Mukesh Ambani against the Bombay HC’s judgment.
Rohatgi loves to travel. “I spend my money on travelling and staying in good hotels across the world,” he says. “I also love cars and have a good collection of them.”
CONSTITUTIONAL CROREPATI- KK VENUGOPAL

For Constitutional law students, Venugopal is the man. In the world of gray-haired legal luminaries, he is, suspiciously, the lone black head. Though the colour of the hair is a bit of a mystery, there is nothing remotely mystical about his defence strategies. Few lawyers nuance their arguments with so much learning. Which explains why the Supreme Court enlists his services every time important Constitutional issues come before it for interpretation.
Immediately after the Emergency, when the Janata government chose him as additional solicitor general, Venugopal shifted base from Chennai to Delhi, 25 years after joining the Bar in Madras.
Venugopal, 79, recalls the case relating to the V P Singh government’s decision in 1990 to implement the Mandal Commission’s reservation recommendations as a defining moment in his career.
“The only way to stop the spiralling (student) violence was by approaching the Supreme Court and obtaining a stay. The court did, in fact, stay the Office Memorandum and the violence came to an automatic end. I believe this must have saved dozens of lives.”
Another memorable case dates back to the Emergency. He was associated with two writ petitions that the Karunanidhi government filed following its dismissal in 1976. These accused the Union government of mala fide for invoking Article 356, on the grounds that the Congress which was in power at the Centre could never otherwise have hoped to govern Tamil Nadu. “The writ petition in the Madras high court was admitted for final disposal, but the bench dismissed it on a technicality. Now, a second writ petition filed by Shri Karunanidhi himself in the Delhi high court faced a hearing by a full bench of three judges. The judges heard out the petition day after day without actually being prepared to issue notice. The situation was delicate. Nobody wanted to commit. Finally, the petitioner decided that the atmosphere prevailing was taking a toll on the judiciary and, so, I made a request to adjourn the matter sine die, and, right away I could see the relief on the faces of the judges,” Venugopal says.
Venugopal is a collector when he is not a lawyer. “I collect antiquarian books, carpets, sculptures and art.” Among his prized possessions is the Sword of Emperor Aurangzeb. And he loves travelling. “I have snorkelled in the Caribbean, trekked to Mansarovar and the forests of the Silent Valley.”
His fees are among the highest —Rs 2-3 lakh for a five-minute appearance on admission day — but he’s also known for his charity, be it for higher education or medical facilities for tribal children.

COMPANY BAHADUR- RF NARIMAN
If you happen to spot a round-faced, bald, slightly pot-bellied senior advocate tearing down the corridors of the Supreme Court on a busy Monday or a Friday, shouting “move, give way”, then it is R F Nariman.
Nariman literally hops from court to court and argues in his baritone voice, probably an asset he inherited from his father Fali Nariman. He does not like to be in the shadow of anyone, not even his father , and perhaps that’s why he has carved out a niche for himself in corporate litigation.
Nariman’s talent was noticed by the Supreme Court, which usually confers the designation of senior advocate, through a cumbersome process, on a lawyer who is 45- years-old or more and one who has practised for more than 20 years at the Bar. But it made an exception in the case of Nariman and designated him as senior advocate when he was just 36 years old.
He learnt how to “lose gracefully” early in his career while arguing before “geniuses like Justices O Chinappa Reddy and A P Sen” who would listen patiently to a young advocate, encourage him by putting meaty questions politely and appreciate him openly. But, “I lost almost all the cases I argued before them,” he confesses. And yet, it left him feeling good. Why? Because of what he could take away from the sessions, and the realisation that “the best in the trade would have lost those cases anyway thanks to the ‘bent of mind’ of those judges.”
Assisting Palkhivala for a month in presenting arguments in the famous Minerva Mills case of 1980 was an education for Rohinton. The judgment on the case extending the “Basic Structure Doctrine” — relating to the unchangeable core of the Constitution , especially the Fundamental Rights — which was framed for the first time in the Keshavananda Bharati judgment, continues to be a case study for law students and lawyers till date.
His cheerful looks belie a seasoned legal brain. But that doesn’t prevent him from seeing the humour in a situation. His rotund features, for example , afford him a source of wry enjoyment. “Ah, the amazement and surprise of seeing my own face in my first born, the first time I set my eyes on her!” he exclaims in mock concern.
Rohinton has set up a Supreme Court Lawyers Welfare Trust, which was a long-felt need in the legal world. Besides the Trust, which takes up quite a bit of his energy and time, Rohinton enjoys his country homes where he finds the environment conducive to listening to western classical music and reading books. Music and books, he says, are his “life and blood.”
SOFT-SPOKEN CANNON- ASHOK DESAI

He is the most soft-spoken of the lot. Perhaps the thinnest too. But being a former attorney general, he enjoys the confidence of the Bench — not merely because he was an AG but because he has the ability to draw the Bench into believing gross injustice would result if they don’t entertain his petition and issue notice to the other side.
Being AG, though, isn’t what he sees as the turning point of his life. It was, he says, arguing the case of theatre artist Vijay Tendulkar and the controversy-marred play Sakharam Binder.
“A milestone has to be reckoned in terms of how a decision promotes public interest,” he says, recalling how Tendulkar was hounded by the Censor Board, establishment and police for using a few naughty words in the play. The police tried to outsmart the playwright by slapping a ban on the play a day before it was being staged, but Ashok Desai and his team worked through the night to present a petition the next day. They managed to get a stay on the ban.
The 68-year-old may be reclusive when it comes to his life, but he opens up on the cases he has argued. “One of the great moments of my professional life was Antulay’s case where we had to fight a litigation on behalf of Mrinal Gore and her brave colleagues to expose the bags of cement, already in short supply , being given against donations to the Indira Gandhi Pratisthan,” he says. His work, aided by a vigilant press, paid off. “Justice (Bakhtavar) Lentin held that the petitioners could prove the misbehaviour of the government almost mathematically”.
Fighting to ensure humane conditions for detenues during the Emergency is another period Desai remembers. “Alas, the Supreme Court, in its own modest contribution to the Emergency, declared that such detentions were legal,” Desai says with a tinge of pain.
In the top league, Desai charges anything upwards of Rs 2 lakh for a five-minute argument for admission of a petition. Dismissing the money he earns, he says, “I, for one, try to maintain that you have to give back to society a part of the income that you earn, preferably anonymously.”

Source - Times of India

Monday, January 25, 2010

Interview of Eminent Jurist Fali S Nariman - Indian Express

‘I am very angry with SC saying if Govt tells us to disclose (assets) we will disclose. That’s what Govt wants — it wants to control the judges’


FALI NARIMAN WALK THE TALK INTERVIEW ON NDTV 24X 7 AND INDIAN EXPRESS. THIS WAS TELECAST ON SEPTEMBER 21 2009
Eminent jurist Fali S Nariman feels that though the Bar has no veto, it has every right to caution judges. In this interaction with The Indian Express Editor-in-Chief Shekhar Gupta on NDTV 24×7’s Walk the Talk, Nariman says the time has come to have a judicial ombudsman and unless a judge has the image of the institution in his mind, there’s no point in being an SC judge
Shekhar Gupta: Hello and welcome to Walk the Talk and my guest this week, well, not only the most respected voices in the business of law and justice and delivery of law and justice in India but worldwide and also if I may say, undoubtedly my most famous neighbour, Fali Nariman, welcome to Walk the Talk.
Fali S Nariman: Thank you, thank you.
Shekhar Gupta: We have planned to do this many times and we kept on thinking of the right moment.
Fali S Nariman: That is because we are neighbours.
Shekhar Gupta: That is because we are neighbours. We take each other for granted. But this is as good a moment as any, to look back on so many years.
Fali S Nariman: Oh, yes. Absolutely. That is correct. We have been law since August 1975 and we have never regretted it.
Shekhar Gupta: And you have been in the business of law now for half a century.
Fali S Nariman: Almost 59 years, to be exact.
Shekhar Gupta: So next year is the diamond jubilee..? But you have seen a lot change?
Fali S Nariman: Yes, of course. I think that is perhaps the sin of the old days, that you look back and say, ah! Those days were much better.
Shekhar Gupta: Fali you are not allowed to say old days because I was going to ask you many questions about how you stay ageless, because you are inspiration to all of us who are getting there.
Fali S Nariman: I am old. I am very ancient, I am very ancient.
Shekhar Gupta: You have seen so many turning points in the history of Indian judiciary, ‘75 to the end of emergency being one and now being another. Both sort of historic but in different ways.
Fali S Nariman: You see the emergency was an entirely different situation and perhaps it was in a sense in retrospect, since it lasted fo4r only a year and a half…
Shekhar Gupta: But didn’t look like a short while then?
Fali S Nariman: Didn’t look like a short while then but it was a good thing for us. It was an inoculation, in my opinion, against tyrannical rule. And I don’t think we will ever, at least for the next 50 years, face that same situation where we would have rule without law. That is where the thing breaks down. Even benevolent rule without law, I think, is an anathema.
Shekhar Gupta: When you see inoculation, what you mean is that it sort of released the antibodies in our constitutional and democratic system>
Fali S Nariman: I think we worked best, you know, be it lawyers, judges, just imagine…
Shekhar Gupta: Don’t forget the media…
Fali S Nariman: And the media. But no that is a post emergency phenomenon, I must tell you. You see, it is the lawyers and judges who reacted admirably during the emergency whereas in the normal course there was much to be said against them.
Shekhar Gupta: Because if those two judgments had gone against the right cause, then it was over?
Fali S Nariman: Yes. And just imagine, nine High Courts struck down emergency laws in each state etc and freed all the detainees and it is only the Supreme Court that shut out the lamps of liberty. But that itself was a great clarion call for all of us, and that helped us along. But I think now the steam has gone out. That steam we had, of consideration of liberty…
Shekhar Gupta: In the legal profession?
Fali S Nariman: In the legal profession, in the judiciary. I think people have forgotten all this. They must be reminded, constantly reminded that …
Shekhar Gupta: That is a serious reprimand from Fail Nariman.
Fali S Nariman: Yes, it is. I am afraid so. People don’t remember all this. They don’t even bother about it. And I keep reminding whenever I have the occasion, reminding the judges also about what happened during those dark days. And it is best always, that is why I like these anniversaries when in June your paper, someone else’s, magazine…pick up all this, what happened on 26 th of June and things like that. It is a good revival of something that was wrong and that people must realize was wrong.
Shekhar Gupta: Fali it was that inoculation of the emergency and the judiciary coming in the limelight as the last sort of guardian of liberties and the rule of law, that then led to a lot of reform that empowered the judiciary. Isn’t it?
Fali S Nariman: Absolutely. And a lot of soul-searching when in the judges who didn’t search their souls at all at one point of time, and that made a great difference.
Shekhar Gupta: So all these collegiums, all this autonomy about appointments ultimately came as a result of that?
Fali S Nariman: Only as a result of that.
Shekhar Gupta: The judiciary got empowered by the emergency just as the media got empowered.
Fali S Nariman: Absolutely. I think the media today is fulfilling a tremendous role. Post emergency, it is a very very important role and I don’t care if sometimes someone is maligned, someone says something about nasty about Mr X, Y or Z. that you have to take because, I mean, if you don’t like the heat of the kitchen, as Truman said, then you must get out of it.
Shekhar Gupta: And that applies to the judiciary as well.
Fali S Nariman: That must apply to the judiciary as well.
Shekhar Gupta: Have you got a sense lately that the judiciary has shied away from facing the heat?
Fali S Nariman: Yes and no. But I must tell you that the contempt jurisdiction which we used to exercise, the judiciary used to exercise quite frequently before, is now diluted. I was very sorry to find those Madras advocates on the question of whether the former Chief Justice should have retired and had reached a superannuation age, and that poor man was sent to jail. I don’t like that sort of thing and I think that has set the tone now. They are much more considerate of criticism now than they were before.
Shekhar Gupta: Yes, but when I say shying away from the heat, the heat today is on declaration of assets, the heat today is on the antecedents of certain judges. Is the judiciary engaging or is the judiciary shying away?
Fali S Nariman: it is not engaging, unfortunately. I must tell you that I admire some of our younger judges, judges in the High Court for instance, who have had the courage to say, “No, we must declare our assets”. One of the judges of the Delhi High Court has said so. And, I mean, he could have very well taken the moral high ground that oh, we are superior to everybody, we don’t have to do anything.
Shekhar Gupta: So, he deserves to be saluted?
Fali S Nariman: Absolutely. A large number of judges in this High Court, I find, are extraordinarily good.
Shekhar Gupta: And Karnataka High Court, Punjab High Court…
Fali S Nariman: Even Karnataka High Court, Punjab High Court and the Bombay High Court, I think, all the younger people are extraordinarily good…
Shekhar Gupta: All these people who dared to say something different, who dared to break from the pack on declaration of assets.
Fali S Nariman: Absolutely, and I don’t see why there was that criticism of that particular judge, I forgot his name, of Karnataka, who said…
Shekhar Gupta: Shailendra Kumar.
Fali S Nariman: Shailendra Kumar, yes, who said I will declare my assets. Well, good enough. Doesn’t matter if he wanted to steal the limelight a bit but that was the breaking point, if you ask me, that was when every body said, oh! My God, now we are really breaking down so, lets gather forces and move with the tide. And that was a good thing. Sometimes, out of lla this comes out a lot of good.
Shekhar Gupta: What is with the younger judges, you know, you are a veteran but a very young veteran, do you think there is a revival now? The new crop of judges…
Fali S Nariman: I have great faith in the young people of this country, particularly if you ask me, the younger students…
Shekhar Gupta: Law students, particularly?
Fali S Nariman: Law students. Whenever I go to these colleges and lecture and so on and so forth, I find the response is so magnificent…and I find they know much more than some of us know, lawyers of 10 year, 15 year experience don’t know. When we go we have to be really prepared. And I am told that even in medicine it is the younger doctors, younger people who are extraordinarily good.
Shekhar Gupta: You have talking at these new colleges now…
Fali S Nariman: Yes, I have been talking at these new colleges now. I went to Jhodpur recently and we found in that law faculty the students were extraordinarily receptive, they knew much more than many of us knew and they kept themselves son the ball, use the internet, something I don’t use…
Shekhar Gupta: And you don’t have to. You have got internet in your head.
Fali S Nariman: No, no, I should use it much more but I leave it to secretaries to do that.
Shekhar Gupta: Because Fali, in old days at law faculties were…you could hide once you had finished college for a few more years if you didn’t have anywhere to go and you do a little in campus. But it is tough to get into law colleges.
Fali S Nariman: I must tell you at the Government Law College in Bombay , which is 150 years old, there is a Latin maxim –because all maxims are Latin, there are no Hindi maxims or English maxims—which meant that ‘nothing defile the temple’. I like that, that nothing defile the temple of the law which I think is a very great vision. I don’t decry the present rung of judges but t6he older judges had much more vision of that particular aspect because after all especially in the highest court where you have the power of life and death over people, you have to be seen to be extraordinary in character, in integrity, in competence, everything.
Shekhar Gupta: That is why all these salutations and my lord and wigs and all that…
Fali S Nariman: But I must tell you something. You see, take a gentleman like Mr Venkatachala. H ow do we remember him today? Most people know him, of course, because he is one of our living legends. Because only because, Chief Justice Pathak, when he deliberately went to Karnataka to find out who would be a good choice for the Supreme Court and looked at No 1, No 2, No 3, No 4 and then found from the bar that the best choice would be No 5 who is Justice Venkatchala . That is how he was brought to the Supreme Court and became one of our most distinguished Chief Justices.
Shekhar Gupta: So he was head-hunted?
Fali S Nariman: He was head-hunted. You must head-hunt. In the final court, you must head-hunt. And perhaps that is one of the great things. Infact, when I was at the bar in 74-75, I had gone to Kerala and I can mention names today, I appeared before a man called Justice Irady, who later became a judge of the Supreme Court.
Shekhar Gupta: We know him as the man who headed that tribunal on river waters.
Fali S Nariman: And who never leaves. You are right. But at that time, his demeanour was so good, competence was good, I lost the case but I found him very good so, I came back and told Justice Ontwalia , whom we knew very well here in Delhi, that I was before a particular judge named so and so and do you know what Chief Justice Reddy told him that brother why don’t you go to Kerala this weekend, have a look, find out from the bar–the bar is the best judge of judges. The bar unanimously proclaimed that he was good and he was brought here and for a whole year after that, he kept saying that Nariman brought me to the Supreme Court. It is true. It is absolutely true. And this is what people should do. You have to travel in order to find out good material. You can’t do on paper work, you can’t do it in your room…
Shekhar Gupta: So, you have no anxieties about bar associations running these campaigns against judges.
Fali S Nariman: No, no anxieties. They will be all scotched up if they are not worthwhile, if they are not bona fide…
Shekhar Gupta: Because, you know, the other side would say that at this rate the bar has a veto on who gets appointed as judge.
Fali S Nariman: No bar has no veto, bar has no vote. But the bar has the right to warn, the right to caution as in the present circumstances we have been doing. You must caution, ultimately the decision is theirs but they must also realise that they are only passersby, they are only passengers in this big ship called the Supreme Court. They are not people who are permanently there. The permanent thing is the institution. Unless you have the image of the institution in your mind, there is no point being a judge of the Supreme Court.
Shekhar Gupta: I mean, let me make a sort of make a little disclosure. We haven’t chosen this old monument with any purpose. It is called Chor Minar , just happens to live in our neigbourhood or we seem to live in its neighbourhood.
Fali S Nariman: Quite appropriate to have a lawyer here.
Shekhar Gupta: So, Fali now many judicial appointments run into controversies, many sitting judges run into controversies on issues not of ideology, legal views, views on the constitution, quality of judgments but straightforward issues of personal integrity and professional integrity.
Fali S Nariman: This is one of the very disquietening things of today. In the older day there were problems as you said, not of integrity, never of integrity or hardly ever of integrity but only because you are a landlord judge and you are a tenet judge and things of that sort. Just the proclivity of a judge towards a particular view…
Shekhar Gupta: During the emergency it was said that the judges are pro-rich.
Fali S Nariman: Yes, yes, of course the progressive judges, the so-called progressive judges. That was a very bad time and that was a very bad occasion. I think over all, Mr Kumaramangalam was responsible for that.
Shekhar Gupta: He himself was very ideological.
Fali S Nariman: He was very ideological. He said we must have people who look forward and forward looking, and the moment he said forward looking, everybody steeped up and said, “I am forward looking”. But it all arises because distinction in the age limits of the High Court and the Supreme Court. If they equal it out, if everyone retired at 65, High Court or Supreme Court, you require much persuasion to bring up a Justice Gupta or Justice Nariman from the High Court and say please will you come to the Supreme Court because you are best. Otherwise, it would be, “My lord I am very well qualified, I should come and so on…”
Shekhar Gupta: So, you mean people get compromised just to get five more years?
Fali S Nariman: Just to get five more years. And unfortunately, nowadays people are not like Justice Wanchoo. Whenever some judge went to call on him, send his card in, he would come out and say, yes Mr so and so. And that person would say I am Mr Nariman and shake hands, I am judge of such and such court. Yes, Mr Nariman. Thank you Mr Nariman for coming. Good Day. Finish. No conversation about how isd your court doing or what are the judges doing or who is a nasty fellow and who is not. You make your own assessment. You travel a bit. The trouble with our Supreme Court is, our judges, they don’t travel, they don’t see places except to deliver one or two speeches.
Shekhar Gupta: And what is the reason for it. They are overworked?
Fali S Nariman: They are fantastically overworked, I must tell you that. People must come and see how overworked they are. They have far too much work. So, unless this institution of a collegium is institutionalised, unless you have an office, a registrar, somebody like that to receive complaints, to find out in the zone of consideration, how many people are good, what is their qualification and so on, how will you choose them. Not on paper, not because I tell them or you tell them.
Shekhar Gupta: How do you reduce the workload on them?
Fali S Nariman: Very difficult. Because we entertain everything and I don’t blame them. Today the greatest problem with our courts, High Courts particularly, is the problem of caste. Because if you are such a such caste lawyer before such a such caste judge, you will either lose or win depending upon your caste.
Shekhar Gupta: Does it actually happen?
Fali S Nariman: It happens.
Shekhar Gupta: It is not just a perception.
Fali S Nariman: No. And therefore, in the Supreme Court all that is got rid off for the simple reason that there will be a bench of atleast two, one from one state and another from another state.
Shekhar Gupta: Maybe, it would be very tragic if you start now looking for caste balance in our Supreme Court benches.
Fali S Nariman: Oh! My God, that will be a disaster, no doubt about it. We have to be a little more liberal, we have to look forward…
Shekhar Gupta: But are you saying if we are not careful, we may get there?
Fali S Nariman: We may, we may. It is unfortunate but we may. Infact, you see, I don’t know, nowadays competence is just one thing but integrity is the most important factor. In our days, it used to be assumed that if you are going to be a judge, are you competent. Nobody said anything about your integrity.
Shekhar Gupta: Because integrity was taken for granted.
Fali S Nariman: Integrity was taken for granted. Members of the bar are also responsible for this lack of integrity.
Shekhar Gupta: Why do you say so?
Fali S Nariman: Because we are the people who negotiate in certain courts with certain judges, in High Courts etc, we have known that, there have been case4s about it recently. I mean they negotiate with them and find out how a particular judge is behaving or not behaving. Is he likely the person to accept some favours in return for something and so on? And that is what our bar has to…
Shekhar Gupta: But some of the campaigns in the past, there is committee on judicial accountability, it did look like, you know, an impression was growing that almost no judge can get in sort of unblemished. There were campaigns against two sitting CJI’s.
Fali S Nariman: There were, yes. Sometimes we overdo it. But it is better to overdo it than not to do it at all.
Shekhar Gupta: But do you think that the higher judiciary, the Supreme Court bench, the CJI, they have missed a trick. That they could have embraced this whole idea of declaration of assets more willingly.
Fali S Nariman: They missed it so badly, you are absolutely right. I don’t know, maybe perhaps it is because of too much work that they haven’t given that thought to it. Because of they had given that thought to it, confidence of the public in the higher judiciary is still so high and we can’t have it reduced now for God’s sake otherwise what are we going to renown as it is. People are not bothered about our politicians too much. In fact, it is because they say they suspected politicians that we got all these distinctions about declaring your assets and there were all the brave…..You see, now there is this passion for integrity which has to be so because in all walks of life we are not just bothered with how competent you are a person who is corrupt. It is a change in values; I think perhaps television is responsible for it. Maybe, I am not too sure but perhaps it is. Because, you know, the press was a very sturdy institution, in my opinion, but now it is all these media and there being no FCC like in the United States to control the media at all. I mean we don’t only go for news but gossip and wrong things and insinuation.
Shekhar Gupta: So what you are saying is that, you know, if you now say that the first qualification of a judge should be that he should be honest, then you are lowering the bar.
Fali S Nariman: You are lowering the bar. Man, the first thing should have been that is he worth the handle, is he competent enough to handle cases in the Supreme Court.
Shekhar Gupta: Because integrity is to be taken for granted.
Fali S Nariman: Integrity was always taken for granted.
Shekhar Gupta: When did it change? Was there a turning point?
Fali S Nariman: I don’t know. I think it is after the emergency. Emergency shook the institution like nothing else did. When Keshavan Bharti , you know, the great constitutional case of 13 judges where six judges signed the order and the other seven refused to sign or it was the other way round seven signed the order and six refused to sign. That marked the turning point of the breaking of the court, in my opinion, which was very unfortunate but that is how it was.
Shekhar Gupta: And it has never quite recovered from that.
Fali S Nariman: It has never quite recovered from that.
Shekhar Gupta: But in this particular case, assets declaration, you know, the Chief Justice and the higher judiciary, did they make it look like they were being sort of dragged, kicking and screaming.
Fali S Nariman: Yes. That is unfortunate. It should have come off their own bat and nobody would have said ‘yes, yes, these assets should be disclosed and should also be put on the website etc. But now the horse has bolted from the stable, you can’t go closing doors. Now the whole thing is there.
Shekhar Gupta: When you talked to them, did some of tem regret it that they lost an opportunity?
Fali S Nariman: Some of the judges do.
Shekhar Gupta: Because they gave the political class a handle.
Fali S Nariman: Yes, they said you wanted us to do it. Quite frankly the law minister looked, if I may say so without meaning nay disrespect, a bit foolish when he had to withdraw the bill about protecting judges. All parties across the board said ‘No,no. No exemption for anybody. Let them disclose then we will see how it is to be done’. Infact, I think we have today the need of a judicial ombudsman, a judicial ombudsman, above the Chief Justice. Yes, maybe, above the Chief Justice.
Shekhar Gupta: And how does that work?
Fali S Nariman: A judicial ombudsman to whom complaints could be made in private, never public. That gentleman or lady or group, who ever they are, will look into them. You, of course, have to have people of unimpeachable integrity, competence…
Shekhar Gupta: So, it is a presidium over the collegium.
Fali S Nariman: Yes, a presidium over the collegium. You have to. Look at what is happening today. You have to. Because either the collegium has no time because they are very good people, they are extraordinarily important people but they have no time to consider whether Shekhar Gupta is better than Fali Nariman or Fali Nariman is better than Shekhar Gupta from the High Court. Why do they not have? Because they don’t go and ask the bar there, they don’t go and ask the bench there, they don’t have any methodology. You see, once we decided it has to be done by the judges themselves, that is their recommendation, it should have been institutionalised. That is you must have an office, you must have a letter head saying “In the office of the collegium of the Supreme Court’. It is separate from the Supreme Court with a director, registrar who will gather information, find out…
Shekhar Gupta: And some transparency…
Fali S Nariman: …transparency, data will come in and then on that data you can perhaps discuss, otherwise, what is the use of my saying you should come in and you shouldn’t. one of the best judges in Bombay Justice Pangsia , I can name him, he is retired now, didn’t come to the Supreme Court only because some of the Bombay judges who were there a year in the Supreme Court said no we won’t have him where as Manoj Mukherjee, Judge of the Supreme Court, a very eminent judge told me once that Pangsia is our best judge in the High Court. So, I said go and tell your Chief Justice and he said I have already told him but they didn’t appoint him.
Shekhar Gupta: Because of groupism?
Fali S Nariman: Because of groupism. So, it is not that this is happening for the first time, it has happened before.
Shekhar Gupta: So, this ombudsman is a wonderful idea, it is a fascinating idea. Has it been done elsewhere, overseas?
Fali S Nariman: No, I don’t think so. But a judicial ombudsman is the need of the our, in my opinion, having regard to our state of affairs.
Shekhar Gupta: Elaborate a bit more on how it will work? Does the CJI report to him in some way?
Fali S Nariman: No, he doesn’t do any such thing. Infact, people–because this is a participatory democracy—disgruntled people, people with good intentions, bad intentions will keep prying this gentleman, lady or group with all sorts of complaints. Now it is the job of the office of the ombudsman of the Supreme Court to inquire into the complaints against High Court judges, Supreme Court judges. Keep it to ownself, there is publicity. Then quietly again, consult the Chief Justice, ask him what he feels about it, take his views into account and then move in a particular manner saying that no, we think, that something should be done.
Shekhar Gupta: But then won’t every litigant lawyer who loses a case go to the ombudsman, making it a one more court of appeal.
Fali S Nariman: He may but it is better than to go to the press or media and say this judge is this and this judge is that. I am afraid, we have to institutionalise something.
Shekhar Gupta: So the time has come?
Fali S Nariman: Time has come I am afraid. Because, you see, with due respect, we don’t have the giants of the bar today, we don’t have the giants of the bench also.
Shekhar Gupta: There is one right here.
Fali S Nariman: No, no. I am not, I am not. Not at all
Shekhar Gupta: The giant of giants then?
Fali S Nariman: That is good of you but no. I don’t have that…
Shekhar Gupta: So, are you saying that this is the idea whose time has come and maybe the higher judiciary would do well to take the lead here instead of again looking like being dragged, kicking and screaming?
Fali S Nariman: You see, I am very angry with their saying that if government tells us to disclose we will disclose. Why? Why should they ask the government? Either you want to disclose it, disclose it or if you don’t want to disclose it, say it is wrong and strike down the law. You have powers, immense powers.
Shekhar Gupta: It was unusual for the Supreme Court to say ‘if the government wants’.
Fali S Nariman: I was very disappointed because that is exactly what the government wants. It wants to control the judges.
Shekhar Gupta: That is exactly what the political class wants to hear.
Fali S Nariman: Yes. And I am very regretful that that sort of a statement…
Shekhar Gupta: Did you pull the leg of some of the judges saying why have you done this? Admonish them?
Fali S Nariman: Let’s leave that for another occasion.
Shekhar Gupta: But Fali I know I don’t want to talk in detail about the Diakaran issue. But it is unusual for you to put yourself signature on a petition. You almost never do it.
Fali S Nariman: You are right. I never do it but I will tell you something. The reason I did it was, I mentioned it on television the other day, not because I know this gentleman, I don’t know him at all. I have never appeared before him. I have heard stray reports but that is nothing. That doesn’t mean I should put my signature. There were three or four senior advocates, whom I place great reliance, of Madras who told me certain things which shocked me about this particular gentleman. Now it may be wrong or it may be right, therefore, I only put my signature to a letter which said, ‘Please investigate, sir, before you appoint him’. Because as I told you, we (bar) have no power to veto, no power to appoint, we have only the ability because of our stature, because of what we are at the bar, to tell the judges please have a look and then if you want, do it. Besides, if there is such a clamour against him, then drop him. There are 500 other judges of the High Courts whom you can appoint.
Shekhar Gupta: Many would say clamour rises because of caste, because somebody is from the underclass….
Fali S Nariman: Maybe, maybe. You are quite right. Discount all that. Take that into account, I am not saying don’t. If you take that into account and say this is totally worthless but why should very senior advocates put their name and stake their reputation to these charges.
Shekhar Gupta: And some of the people who have done it are people who you trust in Madras ?
Fali S Nariman: Absolutely. And now we have Karnataka, the whole bar has passed some sort of a resolution this morning. Now…
Shekhar Gupta: Are there particular lawyers that you respect in that. Are there particular names that you think are eminent people and they don’t do this flippantly?
Fali S Nariman: You take a man like Mr Arvind Dattar , top class lawyer in the Supreme Court, Shri Ram Panchoo, a very good mediator, he has done a lot for Madras bar, and people like that. Now if these are people who are so eminent then you must trust them. And I was only a spokesman for them and the reason why I was their spokesman was not because Mr Justice X or Y is brought here, therefore, I oppose him. I don’t oppose anybody. I only oppose that you are really introducing something which you may regret later. So, please be careful.
Shekhar Gupta: And which may then weaken the institution?
Fali S Nariman: Totally weaken the institution.
Shekhar Gupta: Not just the Supreme Court but judiciary itself.
Fali S Nariman: Because we can’t get rid of a judge once we appoint him. I mean, almost you can not. The impeachment…..
Shekhar Gupta: and then maybe the political class may start thinking of easier ways of doing that.
Fali S Nariman: I don’t want this institution of ours where I have practiced continuously since 1972 to become some sort of a shop or bazaar, for God’s sake. I would rather stop practice. Because otherwise they would say look like you are also part of it. Why are you complaining? You won such and such case. You must have done something. And believe me, it is when you win something that you realise that something hanky panky has gone on. I will tell you something. A judge from Bombay High Court, one of the judges who were not given any work by Chief Justice Chetartosh Mukjerjee, I was asked to appear before him in a review. A decree had been passed for rejectment and this was a review. Anyway, we went there and the judge ate out of my hand. He said, yes, yes, you are right, it should be reviewed. Mr Rane, very brave member of the bar from appellate side was very angry and he told me outside that this judge is corrupt. He has taken money and I believed it because when the matter came to the Supreme Court, I was appearing for these clients, and the court immediately called upon me and said Mr Nariman what do you have to say. I said I have nothing to say and sat down. So, they admitted the appeal. This is the sort of thing that happens when you are in the driving seat, when you are the person who has won the matter that you realise why you have won a case you should have lost. And…
Shekhar Gupta: And then you figure something did something?
Fali S Nariman: You figure something did something. Then I said Chetartosh Mukjerjee, then Chief Justice of Bombay High Court was right who did not give these judges any work because of this scandal at the bar.
Shekhar Gupta: So, in terms of the history of Indian higher judiciary, this is a moment of crisis?
Fali S Nariman: This is a moment of crisis, I am afraid.
Shekhar Gupta: How big is it? Is it one of the biggest or is the biggest after the emergency?
Fali S Nariman: It the biggest after the emergency and it is unfortunate that it is brought on. It could have been avoided. This is a lack of preparation, lack of homework, if I may say so without meaning disrespect, to the five good judges of our Supreme Court, the first five…
Shekhar Gupta: The collegium?
Fali S Nariman: The collegium, yeah, that you must do much more homework when you recommend the name. Once the recommendation has gone out, it will be very difficult for them to withdraw it.
Shekhar Gupta: It will look one more loss of face.
Fali S Nariman: One more loss of face or you are giving in to the bar like that, which is not correct also.
Shekhar Gupta: And then this will embolden maybe in some cases bar with the wrong motive.
Fali S Nariman: Yes, quite right.
Shekhar Gupta: So, it is best not to expose your flank like this?
Fali S Nariman: You should not.
Shekhar Gupta: What is your advice now to these five wisest judges in India , among the five wisest in the world, the five busiest in the world on how to get out of the situation?
Fali S Nariman: You see, in the first place as I said before, while the system is there, make it work properly. Each of you, or one of you atleast, whenever you want to fill a place from the High Court, please go there, find out from the bar what their impression are. You need not do it publicly, you just go there, find out from everybody concerned because you never know who will say what. Make an assessment yourself, because ultimately they are wise people, as you said the five wise men, they should really do it and perhaps a woman in addition would help.
Shekhar Gupta: That is one problem, Supreme Court not having a woman judge.
Fali S Nariman: We had one, an extremely competent one. But then we must have another. There is absolutely no doubt about that. All the world courts have women as judges.
Shekhar Gupta: So, even if it requires a little bit of affirmative action, we should do it now.
Fali S Nariman: Yeah, we should do it now. There is no doubt.
Shekhar Gupta: Because just the presence of a woman there would bring in a different kind of balance and sensitivity?
Fali S Nariman: I think so.
Shekhar Gupta: You forgot to mention something else. Something you said just a few minutes back.
Fali S Nariman: What?
Shekhar Gupta: Maybe time has now come for the collegium itself to push the idea of a judicial ombudsman and not to hide from it.
Fali S Nariman: I hope so.
Shekhar Gupta: And not to see it as a threat or as an encroachment?
Fali S Nariman: no, not to see it as a comedown or as a check on their power and so on. Because after all it was a court invented scheme of things—we didn’t trust the government that is why the collegium came in.
Shekhar Gupta: And because we still don’t trust the government we would rather have our own ombudsman.
Fali S Nariman: That would be better than a national commission even because National Commission would have the same problem. What do you do with the leader of opposition and the prime minister? What would they know? What would they bother? They will listen either to me or the Chief Justice and make their choices. But here is somebody (Ombudsman) who is concentrating only on the judiciary. He knows what it is, he asks for information, Intelligence Bureau reports…
Shekhar Gupta: And it isn’t only one person, it can be a presidium of three…
Fali S Nariman: It can be, like the Election Commission.
Shekhar Gupta: And that truly is a most original idea and I know this will be talked about now…
Fali S Nariman: It may be criticized and all but something is better than nothing. Because here they are caught on the wrong foot and it is a bit of loss of face. I mean, if I was a member of the presidium or collegium, I would also feel a loss of face. I had myself recommended Mr X and how can I withdraw that recommendation. So there has to be a very cogent reason.
Shekhar Gupta: And a little bit of an, if I may use the expression, fig leaf as well because then they don’t have to step back, the ombudsman can take that call.
Fali S Nariman: That is right. He can take that call and also communicate. There should be a channel of communication between the ombudsman not as a superior but as someone, I mean, who has that authority…
Shekhar Gupta: And that is much better than the law minister or the law secretary?
Fali S Nariman: Yes, of course, for better than what we ever had. Let’s hope something like that happens.
Shekhar Gupta: So, Fali, what I can say is that anytime one has a conversation with you, one learns something new and one goes back thinking. I think what you said today of this new idea of judicial ombudsman should get the country thinking, certainly should get the judiciary and the legal circles thinking. Before I conclude, tell me how do you keep your body and mind getting younger and younger as years pass…?
Fali S Nariman: Oh! My God, I am just coping. I will let you into a secret. I am taking less and less work, much less work than I used to because there is no point in showing that I am the greatest…
Shekhar Gupta: But you are taking a lot of burdens.
Fali S Nariman: You have to…
Shekhar Gupta: I mean you could just be sitting back and writing memoirs.
Fali S Nariman: Something like that, yeah. But you have to do something. If you are worth the candle, you have to do something.
Shekhar Gupta: And, when do you start writing your memoirs?
Fali S Nariman: That is an open secret.
Shekhar Gupta: Well, I mean when you do think of that, you remember you have a neighbour who can come and help you, reading the notes at least.
Fali S Nariman: Thank you.
Shekhar Gupta: Thank you very much, Fali.
Fali S Nariman: We will walk one more talk.
Shekhar Gupta: Absolutely. So wonderful of you to find time and so wonderful of you to actually stand up and be counted in this situation. We need more people like you. Thank you.
Fali S Nariman: Thank you.